Ekta 'Young People Against Racism' meets Phil Sawford MP Kettering Constituency

On Friday 31st January 2003, Ekta met with the local Member of Parliament, Phil Sawford. It was an opportunity for us to inform him about our work, to ask what the government is doing about a wide range of issues and also to talk to him about our concerns and our hopes for a future free of prejudice.

This is what happened:

Ekta: What is the Government actively doing about racism?
Phil: That's a very good question. I suppose the answer is not enough. It's been over 25 years since the original Race Relations Act came out (in 1976), and there have been reviews of it, but we're not doing a great deal. But we ought to be.

E: So what do you think should be done?
P: I think it's time to update the Race Relations Act, but I think we've got a really difficult problem at the minute. Where there is mistrust, misunderstanding and xenophobia, if you add into that lethal cocktail terrorism and fear, it makes the situation worse. The messages we are sending out to the Muslim world, the messages we're receiving, for example, the guy who stabbed the policeman - it doesn't help the rest of that community, whether they're Somalian or Algerian or Moroccan. The climate that we've got now, where every "foreigner" could be a threat, doesn't’t help - the reality is it's not about skin colour.

But we are in a very difficult situation now. A constituent sent me a cartoon from The Sun newspaper the other day, which had funny-looking people with spears and guns and a guy standing at passport control with a sign saying "Benefits - come and collect yours". I have to tell you, the last time I saw that kind of cartoon was in a BNP leaflet. I was absolutely appalled. This was in the biggest selling daily paper, and what worries me is the way the media are portraying all this.

In terms of terrorism and the threat, well the guy who was sentenced in America yesterday was an Englishman, not an African or someone from the Middle East or a Palestinian. I think we've got to stand up now more than ever before, and I really think the Government's line could be more helpful. Also, I think the media could be far more responsible.

The Muslim community as a whole is just as concerned about September 11th. Also, the Sikh community in Kettering is concerned about immigration and asylum, because they feel it will reflect badly on them.

This business at the Mosque in Finsbury Park is a concern. I think they found a replica gun and a CS gas canister. There are serious questions about why the police went in and raided the place, but I have to say that one knife, one gun, one CS gas canister in a Mosque is one too many. It then gives the Press even more to print. It doesn't do any of our communities any good when these things happen.

If someone was due to be deported 4 years ago, if he then went on to sign for a big football club and scored the winning goal in the FA Cup, people would suddenly forget that he should have been thrown out of the country a few years ago. If, however, that person stabs and kills a police officer, it really doesn't help community relations. With asylum and with the threat and fear of terrorism, the people in the media perhaps aren't the kind of people that we want to have that public influence or that kind of voice.

It makes what you're doing doubly and trebly important.

There are lots of ordinary, hard-working people who have very worrying views on asylum-seekers.

I think the government needs to stop being as aggressive on the Iraq issue and we need to have a more measured response.

E: Do you think the government is giving innovative groups like Ekta enough support and publicity so that they can expand and branch off and so that people who have suffered racism have more access to help?
P: Probably not. In fact, I don't think there are any national initiatives that I know of. I don't know where you've looked for funding, support and guidance, or if you've been able to link up with other similar groups in other areas, if we even have groups in other areas.

Wouldn't it have been nice if there had been a similar group in Barnsley. I read that the Appeal Court had decided that, following riots in that area, young Asian kids had been dealt with far more severely than white kids, which is a terrible situation.

I'm quite happy to chase it up and ask questions about what support there might be available and whether other groups like yours exist elsewhere.

Have you had any government support?

E: Only little bits of local government support - SRB funding, Northants Police Millennium Trust, Student Council. The Borough Council and the County Council provide support in kind.
P: I need to go and investigate what we are actually doing. You know, this stuff in Barnsley, it starts off with concerns about asylum seekers and then it turns into perceived threat of "foreigners", then you end up with the BNP getting another councilor elected, and it's important to shout loud against it. It makes your work essential.

It's been a long time since we had that kind of problem in Kettering, but we shouldn't be blind to the wider problem, and we should be trying to get groups together, particularly in cities where there have been problems recently.

What you need to do is give me a brief about the work you're doing and how you came together, so that I can go and talk to Ministers about you. We need to ask if there are similar groups elsewhere, or is this pioneering work in Kettering. Are other local authorities building things into their Crime Reduction Strategies along the lines of the work you're doing here. We could be the pathfinders in Kettering.

E: How much of a problem do you think racism is in Kettering?
P: I don't think it's a big problem in Kettering and I'm glad. I think in Kettering our communities can and have come together. Last Sunday, I was at the Holocaust Memorial event where a tree was planted, and there were so many different religions and those of no religion present. It was good to see.

We had a little service after the terrible earthquake in Gujarat in India, and it brought together more different religions in the town than I'd ever seen before. It wasn't a huge meeting, but it was an amazing gathering where we could all come together and spare a thought for others.

For about 30 years, in the country as a whole, we've worked really hard on community relations, and a lot of the good work we've done is slowly being undone just now.

I do remember the National Front putting up a candidate at the local election in Kettering. I remember when they held rallies in Corby and Wellingborough. We've moved on from there. But we have to recognise that it's always fragile. There are always people who don't necessarily see themselves as racist, but they talk negatively about all these "foreigners" coming into the country.

We have a huge diversity of people in Kettering, and I think that's excellent. I want to see us all living together and sharing and understanding each other. Tolerance - if you can't understand you can tolerate, you can try to accept even if you don't understand.

I don't think we've got a big problem in Kettering, but I think we've got to work at it to make sure it stays that way.

E: How can you help us inform the citizens of Kettering and further afield that this is an important issue, and how can we get their support.
P: Well, MPs aren't much good for most things! But we can get a camera to turn up, and we can get an article in the paper.

I could get a letter to a Minister, a question in the House of Parliament, turning up at a fundraiser, I could get you a bottle of whiskey signed by the Prime Minister. If there are ways I can help, you need to tell me and I'll do my best. If I can I will.

E: You get to meet lots of people in your everyday work. We want as many people as possible to hear about Ekta and understand the importance of our work. Can you help us to spread the word?
P: I can do that. I have a website, and I'm trying to put together something specific for younger people in schools particularly related to the National Curriculum. I can make sure your website address is in that section. I can also just drop you into the conversation.

I used to have an old cat called Rupert, who was a stray and he chose to come and stay with us. He was old and had various problems, but he chose to be with us for 10 years and we felt privileged. I sometimes feel like that about the different communities in Kettering. They have come here from all over the world, and we should feel pleased that they chose to come here and choose to stay and make a valuable contribution. It is a privilege and we should be pleased.

E: Speaking of the National Curriculum, one of the projects we've been working on is a video and resource pack for schools. We wrote to lots of schools and we didn't get a very good response. We've done some research, and we don't think racism is addressed by the National Curriculum.
P: I'm going to check that out. I wrote to the Department of Education recently to request the resource pack they send out to schools about Parliament and what MPs do, so that I can tie in with the citizenship bit of the National Curriculum.

There is a UK Youth Parliament, and there is a big move (through the National Association of Youth Clubs) for votes at 16.

There is a strong case to link citizenship to accountability and democratic rights. We're worried about participation and how you encourage younger people to take an interest and we need to do something about it.

With regard to racism, I honestly don't know what the National Curriculum is doing about racism, so I need to look into it. Maybe the Commission for Racial Equality would want input into that.

E: What is to stop what happened in Barnsley happening here?
P: I think engagement, education, the work you're doing.

E: As the BNP have recently made political gains, what can be done to counter their propaganda?
P: It's very difficult. They ask questions about things that people are concerned about - do you want to stamp out drugs? Do you want better housing? Do you want better schools? They don't make blatant racist statements like they used. They are very subtle. They say that they speak for you.

We need to keep getting the message across about what they really stand for, what they really are and what their real agenda is.

E: Do you think the BNP can gain the momentum that the Nazis once did in Germany?
P: No. You never say never, but I honestly believe, in this country, there are enough decent people who would say no and reject it. It bothers me immensely that they've been picking up odd seats, but often it's due to circumstance when the main parties are split.

I understand that the biggest vote the National Front got was in Market Harborough in 1979, which isn't very far from us. That's a worry. But I don't think they'll ever make a significant breakthrough nationally. They’ll only pick up odd seats by default.

E: Do you think that the impending war could heighten their propaganda? The fact that there are rifts in the community could blind people and turn their thoughts in that direction.
P: Well, we do live in dangerous times, and you get the feeling that they could gain support. But when those aeroplanes hit the Twin Towers in America, all of us, across the globe, sat aghast. We wondered why. We asked questions. There was a change in all of us across the planet. Lots of different people of different nationalities died on that day. The effect that had on the global psyche was immense.

E: Do you think we'll be going to war, and how will it affect community relations in this country?
P: I still think it can be averted, I still think it can be avoided. I still think it's unjustified and that the case has not been made. I hope that the weapons inspectors can be given a bit longer.

There will be a lot of effects. The first is that there will be a large number of deaths. The economic effects will be huge. The community effects - I think convincing a lot of people that this is not in some way an anti-Muslim war will be extremely difficult. But if it goes ahead, innocent people in Iraq will be killed.

E: We as a group feel that the propaganda relating to asylum seekers and illegal immigrants has dangerous and racist implications. How much of an effect do you think this has on the general public, and what can the government do about this?
P: I think that the government needs to tighten up the whole asylum business. You tighten up immigration rules, you create more different classes of British nationality. You make it more and more difficult for people to come here - visas, rights of entry, permission to stay, etc. You make it very hard, so people end up having to find new ways to get around the system if they want to end up here. A lot of people come here because traditionally perhaps Britain has had a good reputation for accepting into the country people who are fleeing persecution. I think we have a proud record.

There are other reasons that people come here. It's likely that wherever you come from, there will be a community here - we're a very cosmopolitan country.

Another reason is language - a lot of people can speak a bit of English.

But if you can convince the general public that it's got nothing to do with those sorts of reasons, but that we're a "soft touch", it just makes things worse. We're actually quite tough on immigration. We've created asylum seekers, because we won't let anyone in - the only way they have a chance of getting in is by claiming asylum.

If it subsequently becomes clear that they're not running from anything, and they're not going to be persecuted, then perhaps we should send them back. We need to get better and quicker at deciding who should stay and who should go back.

We take relatively small numbers of asylum seekers in this country. Germany took more last year - it's a bigger country, but they have the same population.

We need to get that message out. The problem is, it only takes one to kill a policeman. That man, who picked up that knife, did an enormous amount of damage, not least killing the policeman. It allows people to point the finger of suspicion. It was a tragedy.

What if we lived in a world where the movement of people was as easy as the movement of money and goods? I don't think it's going to happen in my lifetime, maybe not in yours. It's all tied up with poverty, lack of opportunity, corruption, arms sales, lack of clean water, and a whole host of other things. There are people out there who are desperate to go somewhere else. They're prepared to be locked in the back of a lorry, they'll risk death to be somewhere else.

We need to address what they're running away from - fear, persecution, religious intolerance, etc. We need to address the cause of the problems.

E: Is the government trying to address the problem of inequality?
P: There are too many inequalities in this country. When I go to work, the cleaners, the people who work in the canteen, it's likely to be a black person. There's a big picture of the Sergeant at Arms staff, and all those committees. There are two women, but no black faces. Very few black people work in the City. In many of the professions, where are the opportunities? Where are the role models?

There is talk of massive initiatives in some areas to get more money into education to boost their opportunities.

I think it's better in some professions than others, but we've got a long way to go. I don't think the statistics have changed much since about 30 years ago.

I think I should write to the Sergeant at Arms and the speaker and ask for a breakdown of the nationalities of people who work at the House of Commons and what jobs they do. It's been bothering me for a long time now, so I should take some action. I'll do that. You've prompted me into action.

E: When is the double jeopardy law going to be abolished and if it is abolished, what implications will this have on high profile cases like the Stephen Lawrence murder?
P: I don't think it will be abolished soon. Thinking about human rights and civil liberties, is it right to put somebody on trial for something they've already been cleared of? I think the difficulty is that justice needs to be seen to be done, and sometimes we know there are cases where people we know did it do get away.

New technology can come into play here - technology is improving all the time and can reveal new evidence several years down the line. At one time, once you'd been tried and either convicted or acquitted, that was that.

E: Do you think that the government tends to have knee-jerk reactions to a lot of issues? For example, there was talk about double jeopardy after the Stephen Lawrence trial, there's a lot of talk about gun laws at the moment following the shootings in Birmingham, etc.
P: I think you're spot on. We came in with plans and visions, and we're probably as bogged down as any other government becomes. We've become reactive.

We've done a lot of good things, but I think you're right. The media is partly responsible with the way it portrays certain issues. As a government, we need to step back and look at the root causes of these problems, not just create policies. We're making laws, instead of making it happen. We're giving people more powers for this and creating more laws for that, but it's not the answer.

E: Do you think racism will be completely eliminated in the future?
P: I remember reading E.P. Thompson, and he said that it's all to do with "the other", the one that's not you, the threat. He said, "Can we hope that one day, there will be a threat form outer space that is so grave and so serious that it will once and for all unite the human race. "

If the Martians come we might unite, because we can perceive somebody else as "the other".

Other than that, I don't know - not in my lifetime. There will always be an element of human bonding that requires the "us and them" factor.

But we can work towards it.

E: I think we have to shout as loud as we can, so that we can be heard.
P: Let's do it. I'll shout with you. Every time.

I believe it's never been more important. It's a delight to come and talk to you.